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		<title><![CDATA[JRRVF - Tolkien en Version Française - Forum / Authorité]]></title>
		<link>https://www.jrrvf.com/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=3876</link>
		<description><![CDATA[Les sujets les plus récents dans Authorité.]]></description>
		<lastBuildDate>Mon, 06 Jan 2003 02:18:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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			<title><![CDATA[Réponse à&#160;:  Authorité]]></title>
			<link>https://www.jrrvf.com/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?pid=31733#p31733</link>
			<description><![CDATA[<p>Super, pour une fois qu'on est tous d'accord ... la nouvelle année s'annonce bien ;-))<p>Cathy</p>]]></description>
			<author><![CDATA[dummy@example.com (Szpako)]]></author>
			<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jan 2003 02:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid>https://www.jrrvf.com/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?pid=31733#p31733</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA[Réponse à&#160;:  Authorité]]></title>
			<link>https://www.jrrvf.com/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?pid=31732#p31732</link>
			<description><![CDATA[<p>Compléments...;-)</p><p>Tolkien parle bien des Valar en tant qu'" autorit&eacute;s " en Arda (" Les Pouvoirs ou les Autorit&eacute;s ", [L153, p.193], deux occurrences, les deux au pluriel) :</p><p><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT COLOR="#000080">As for 'whose <B>authority</B> decides these things?' The immediate '<B>authorities</B>' are the Valar (the <U>Powers</U> or <B>Authorities</B>): the 'gods'. But they are only created spirits - of <U>high angelic order</U> we should say, with their attendant <U>lesser angels</U> - reverend, therefore, but not worshipful;[...]</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></p><p>Ici, il est manifeste que Tolkien fait r&eacute;f&eacute;rence &agrave; un des ordre des puissances c&eacute;lestes telles quon peut les rencontrer dans la premi&egrave;re &eacute;p&icirc;tre de Pierre : </p><p><BLOCKQUOTE>1 Peter 3:22 [KJ] <FONT COLOR="#000080">[Christ] who has gone into Heaven and is on the right hand of God, <U>angels</U> and <B>authorities</B> and <U>powers being</U> made subject unto Him.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></p><p>Mais l'" autorit&eacute; finale " est celle d&eacute;tenue par l'Unique, Eru comme on le lit en [L181, p.235] :</p><p><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT COLOR="#000080">It is, I should say, a 'monotheistic but "sub-creational" mythology'. There is no embodiment of the One, of God, who indeed remains remote, outside the World, and only directly accessible to the Valar or Rulers. These take the place of the 'gods', but are created spirits, or those of the primary creation who by their own will have entered into the world. But the One retains all ultimate authority, and (or so it seems as viewed in serial time) reserves the right to intrude the finger of God into the story: [...]</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></p><p>Ce qui explique qu'&agrave; terme, l'autorit&eacute; devienne un des noms d'Eru, comme dans la lettre 156, mais aussi, plus explicitement, dans la lettre 113 adress&eacute;e &agrave; C.S. Lewis lors de propos th&eacute;ologiques sans ambigu&iuml;t&eacute; [L113, p.127]: </p><p><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT COLOR="#000080">I do not know if I make myself clear. But I suppose that it is in our power, as members of Christ, to make such gifts effectively. In the simplest case: if a man has stolen something from me, then <U>before <B>God</B></U> I declare it a gift. That is, of course, a simple way of making use of a wrong, and getting rid of the sting, but that is not the direct object (or it would not be effective); for it seems to me probable that such a gift has effect on <I><U>the culprit</I>'s</U> situation <U>before <B>God</B></U>, and in any case in any true desire to 'forgive' the desire that that should be so must be present. It would be wonderful <U>when summoned to judgement</U>, to answer innumerable charges of wrongdoing to one's brethren, to find unexpectedly that many were not going to be preferred at all! And indeed that instead one had a share in the good made of one's evil. And no less wonderful for the giver. An eternal interaction of relief and gratitude. (But the culprit must be sorry. Otherwise I suppose in the terrible realms of doom the coals of fire would burn intolerably). (What happens when <I><U>the culprit</I></U> is genuinely repentant, but the sufferer is deeply resentful and witholds all 'forgiveness'? It is a terrible thought, to deter anyone from running the risk of needlessly causing such an 'evil'. Of course, <U>the power of mercy</U> is only delegated and <U>is always exercised</U> with or without cooperation <U>by Higher Authority</U>. But the joys and healing of cooperation must be lost?) </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></p><p>Sosryko</p>]]></description>
			<author><![CDATA[dummy@example.com (sosryko)]]></author>
			<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jan 2003 16:21:00 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid>https://www.jrrvf.com/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?pid=31732#p31732</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA[Réponse à&#160;:  Authorité]]></title>
			<link>https://www.jrrvf.com/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?pid=31731#p31731</link>
			<description><![CDATA[<p>Le consensus semble clair dans ce cas.<br>Merci beaucoup.<p>Emeric</p>]]></description>
			<author><![CDATA[dummy@example.com (Elenillor)]]></author>
			<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jan 2003 13:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid>https://www.jrrvf.com/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?pid=31731#p31731</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA[Réponse à&#160;:  Authorité]]></title>
			<link>https://www.jrrvf.com/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?pid=31730#p31730</link>
			<description><![CDATA[<p>C'est également la lecture qu'en font Christina Scull et Wayne G. Hammond dans leur Index des Letters (à l'entrée « Eru »).<br>A noter que les occurrences relevées (p. 202 et 203) ne renvoient qu'à cette lettre.<p>Sébastien</p>]]></description>
			<author><![CDATA[dummy@example.com (Fangorn)]]></author>
			<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jan 2003 11:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid>https://www.jrrvf.com/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?pid=31730#p31730</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA[Réponse à&#160;:  Authorité]]></title>
			<link>https://www.jrrvf.com/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?pid=31729#p31729</link>
			<description><![CDATA[<p>En effet, si on met en relation la lettre 156 et le texte "Les Istari" de CLI3, tout ce fait avec le <b>consentement d'Eru</b>; que les Istari revêtent corps de chair (et non une forme comme les Valar et les autres Maiar) et que Gandalf, après sa mort revient avec un corps de lumière et non de chair, tout ça n'est autorisé que par Eru, il me semble ...<p>Cathy</p>]]></description>
			<author><![CDATA[dummy@example.com (Szpako)]]></author>
			<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jan 2003 05:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid>https://www.jrrvf.com/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?pid=31729#p31729</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA[Réponse à&#160;:  Authorité]]></title>
			<link>https://www.jrrvf.com/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?pid=31728#p31728</link>
			<description><![CDATA[<p>Je pense que ce terme désigne clairement Eru. Qu'-est ce qui te fait dire le contraire ?<p>Laurent</p>]]></description>
			<author><![CDATA[dummy@example.com (Cirdan)]]></author>
			<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jan 2003 00:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid>https://www.jrrvf.com/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?pid=31728#p31728</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA[Authorité]]></title>
			<link>https://www.jrrvf.com/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?pid=31727#p31727</link>
			<description><![CDATA[<p>Dans la Lettre #156 Tolkien, discutant le rôle de Gandalf, fait à plusieurs reprises usage du terme "Authority" en référence à un concept que je ne comprend pas clairement. D'après le contexte, ce nom ne désigne pas les Valar ou Eru mais plutôt un principe abstrait.<br>Que recouvre-t-il ?<p>Emeric</p>]]></description>
			<author><![CDATA[dummy@example.com (Elenillor)]]></author>
			<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jan 2003 21:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid>https://www.jrrvf.com/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?pid=31727#p31727</guid>
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